ECU toast or something simple?

[olly]

Originally Posted by TrueType link=topic=43236.msg474330#msg474330
Did you check the negative on your relay socket Olly?
[/quote

I think I described my situation. I actually get 12v across the relay coil but insufficient current to activate it. If I take the negative from the relay coil and run it direct to battery therefore bypassing the ecu then the starter button starts it fine.

[TrueType]

Originally Posted by olly

[quote author=TrueType link=topic=43236.msg474330#msg474330
Did you check the negative on your relay socket Olly?

 I think I described my situation. I actually get 12v across the relay coil but insufficient current to activate it. If I take the negative from the relay coil and run it direct to battery therefore bypassing the ecu then the starter button starts it fine.

Our symptoms seems the same, maybe the cause too.

Following the wiring diagram, everything seems is fine until the ECU. But ECU doesn't provide the negative polarity to the starter relay. Even when the clutch, neutral and side stand switches working as they should.

Can the Triumph diagnostic tool, or TuneECU spot locate the problematic part in these kind of issues?

[olly]

An old version I had on my windows PC didn't show anything. Does yours start of connect the other side of the relay to the -ve of the battery?

[TrueType]

Originally Posted by olly

An old version I had on my windows PC didn't show anything. Does yours start of connect the other side of the relay to the -ve of the battery?

Yes it does. As expected.

If all ECU controls are passed (clutch, side-stand and shifter positions), then earth to the relay coil is supplied by ECU. Somehow something causing ECU to block the circuit.

I did not test the side stand or neutral switches' continuity or voltages. I just concluded by logic that they should work, as the neutral light comes on when I shift to neutral. And side stand position shouldn't matter when the bike knows it is in neutral. But maybe that is a wrong logic.

I will also check under the female relay socket to see if there is a bad connection.

Here are two pages from the service manual.

[Sidewinder]

Another thing that will stop you is the integrated immobiliser.  The transponder in the key getting signal from the aerial in the lock unit.  If the proper signal is not sent/rec'd it won't start.  Have you tried spare key?
Needs be no magnets, no other transponder equipped keys etc.

[TrueType]

Originally Posted by Sidewinder

Another thing that will stop you is the integrated immobiliser.  The transponder in the key getting signal from the aerial in the lock unit.  If the proper signal is not sent/rec'd it won't start.  Have you tried spare key?
Needs be no magnets, no other transponder equipped keys etc.

Yes I had tried with the spare key. Not luck unfortunately.

[olly]

Originally Posted by TrueType

If all ECU controls are passed (clutch, side-stand and shifter positions), then earth to the relay coil is supplied by ECU. Somehow something causing ECU to block the circuit.

I don't fully understand what you've written here or how you have proven it.
Mine is as follows.
Press the starter button and I get 12V across where the relay coil would have been. Note I'm saying across - not at - i.e. there's a full circuit, if I put the voltmeter where the coil would have been I get 12.x volts.
I have not measured what I get when the actual relay is in place - I'll check that later - I guess it doesn't make any difference.
Whether the starter button allows volts to the relay coil is not related to clutch switch or sidestand or gear position sensor.
Connecting the -ve side of the relay coil direct to the battery, thereby bypassing whatever the ECU does allows the bike to start on the button.
My guess is that the ECU restricts the current so that it's insufficient to activate the coil but enough so that it can see the signal from the button but that could easily be a very bad and stupid guess.

I wish you could read from the ECU and have it tell you why it's not allowing the start.

[Sidewinder]

Sport and not-Sport work slightly differently in that not-Sport the start relay is a changeover and controls the headlights too so they switch off when the bike is cranking.
The Sport controls the function of the headlights separately so the start relay only has one job of powering the start circuit.

Not-Sport the earth side of the start relay coil is controlled by the ECU and it will only provide said earth if the signals from the clutch and side stand switches etc are correct.  So yes wither the start relay coil will energise or not is directly related to the status of these switches.
The +ve side of the start relay coil comes via the alarm connector and is either a permanent simple loop (blanking plug) out to the loom's 12v feed or from same but controlled via the accessory alarm unit.

So with ign on there should always be continuity to +battery on one side of the coil (prob 86) and continuity to earth on other side (85) should be dependent on whether start button is pressed AND the clutch/stand switches are working and giving correct signal.

So ign on, start relay is not energised so headlights are on.  Press start button, ecu checks signals from the clutch etc and if all ok it will provide earth to coil (lights go off) which then energises the start solenoid and bike cranks.

Using a diag tool like tune ecu you can test to see if clutch, stand, neutral light etc work or not.

[TrueType]

Originally Posted by olly

I don't fully understand what you've written here or how you have proven it.
Mine is as follows.
Press the starter button and I get 12V across where the relay coil would have been. Note I'm saying across - not at - i.e. there's a full circuit, if I put the voltmeter where the coil would have been I get 12.x volts.

What I am saying is that the circuit to the starter relay cannot be closed unless the ECU supplies negative current to the coil (pin 85). ECU only supplies it when the initial checks are ok and kill switch is off. An when you press the start button, you supply 12V to relay and close the circuit, engage the coil, start the bike. That is how our bikes work. On my bike, I can measure 12V on the pin 86 when start button pressed, but only when I ignore the pin 85 and use battery -ve to complete the circuit. Meaning I don't have earth on pin 85 therefore no full circuit on relay coil. So jumper cable form battery -ve to pin 85 simply solves the problem and starts the bike.

I read your original post again. You say you can measure actually 12V on the relay coil, by touching your multimeter's probes on pin 85 and 86 while pressing the start button. Then yes, you have full circuit working properly. But if that is the case, only thing for you to suspect is the relay itself. Like Sidewinder said, their contact points can oxidize, burn. Once I had a similar problem with an Onkyo A/V receiver which cannot switch properly between speaker sets even when I hear the relay clicking. I was able to open the relay housing, sand off the oxidation and make it work again. But it must be a sealed relay on your bike. Did you try a brand new relay? A relay should require a minimal amount of current to activate. That is the whole point of relays. If there is resistance, it must be at the contacts points inside the relay (connection between pin 30 and pin 87). Or a faulty relay that simply doesn't click. But you say it clicks. Did you also check whether it clicks when installed on the bike? You should feel it with fingertips. If yes, you shouldn't be suspecting an insufficient current to engage the coil, because the coil engages nicely. If no click, but you still have 12V flowing between pin85 and 86, it is strange.

But I don't have an explanation to what difference does your jumper cable to battery trick makes, while you already have full circuit working properly. Maybe a little bit more current helps the flow on the bad contacts in the relay. Although the possible bad connection on pin 30 and pin 87 are not physically connected to what you did with jumper cable. I don't know.

Just to make sure, did you test the continuity between battery -ve and pin 85? You can also read the resistance if there is a big amount.

 

[TrueType]

Originally Posted by Sidewinder

Sport and not-Sport work slightly differently in that not-Sport the start relay is a changeover and controls the headlights too so they switch off when the bike is cranking.
The Sport controls the function of the headlights separately so the start relay only has one job of powering the start circuit.

Not-Sport the earth side of the start relay coil is controlled by the ECU and it will only provide said earth if the signals from the clutch and side stand switches etc are correct.  So yes wither the start relay coil will energise or not is directly related to the status of these switches.
The +ve side of the start relay coil comes via the alarm connector and is either a permanent simple loop (blanking plug) out to the loom's 12v feed or from same but controlled via the accessory alarm unit.

So with ign on there should always be continuity to +battery on one side of the coil (prob 86) and continuity to earth on other side (85) should be dependent on whether start button is pressed AND the clutch/stand switches are working and giving correct signal.

So ign on, start relay is not energised so headlights are on.  Press start button, ecu checks signals from the clutch etc and if all ok it will provide earth to coil (lights go off) which then energises the start solenoid and bike cranks.

Using a diag tool like tune ecu you can test to see if clutch, stand, neutral light etc work or not.

Exactly. But I believe my 2013 Sport is the almost the same with Non-Sport in this regard. Mine also have a five pin starter relay that also controls the headlights. When starter relay is not energized, pin 30 and pin 87A is in contact and it provides power to the separate headlights relay. When energized, pin 30 and pin 87 is in contact and switches power to the starter solenoid. But I hear they changed this 5 pin starter relays in later models.