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Offline Freddy

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #110 on: 29 October, 2020, 11:28:46 PM »
 :460:  You're a good man Javaman and a smart and persistent one toooo.   :031:   :410:   :037:   12 out of 10 for sticking with it!

Eagerly awaiting the next instalment.   :001:
« Last Edit: 29 October, 2020, 11:30:24 PM by Freddy »
The best substitute for brains is ........what?

Offline Javaman

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #111 on: 30 October, 2020, 12:34:09 AM »
Ha ha Freddy - When  Paul sold his bike for that VFR and moved on, I bet you thought this nightmare was finally over  :008:
Still, at least you get to sit back and drink a cold beer or two while someone else now stresses over it . . . . .

Offline Freddy

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #112 on: 30 October, 2020, 12:51:00 AM »
 :031: + :031: + :031: + :031: = :007: + :001::031::063:           :745:
« Last Edit: 30 October, 2020, 12:54:40 AM by Freddy »
The best substitute for brains is ........what?

Offline Paul2bikes

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #113 on: 30 October, 2020, 10:17:16 AM »
Ayup Javaman, I can imaginr your frustrations now with your own bike developing the problem. Really interesting, I read it again until I got a grasp of it all. Crickey what a job you've taken on.

The loose plate could be down to tolerancing and/or machining error. Or, as you suggest the tabs be bent up/down to provide a firm contact, if this is the case, it would not be done by semi-skilled line operators, it would be built into the pressing of the plate. A very strange & flawed design issue, whichever. Bending the tabs to provide a firm fit will prove it needs to be solid. And, if this float in the plate is the problem on the hot no-start minority. In which case the majority (the good ones) could be a solid location. We wouldn't know that without stripping a quantity of good units.

Good luck with sorting your own first.
Also: '16 Tiger 800, '95 Yamaha Serow, '58 Ariel FH.

Online Sidewinder

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #114 on: 30 October, 2020, 11:13:22 AM »
I think you've missed that once assembled, the brush springs are forcing the edge of the plate in contact with the body wall.  This is likely where you get best contact for the earth path.  Also as the brushes wear this spring pressure will lessen very slightly due to the brushes being shorter.

As a solution, rather than wiring from plate thru the body to outside why not simply drill a hole in the body for a nut n bolt, plus one in the plate and use a piece of wire or maybe thin copper or brass strip to properly connect plate to body?

Found this too https://motofaction.org/motorcycles/honda-cx-gl/starter-earth-mod-blind-hole-tap-style-cx650-gl650-cx500-gl500/
« Last Edit: 30 October, 2020, 12:08:00 PM by Sidewinder »

Offline Paullie

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #115 on: 30 October, 2020, 11:40:24 AM »
*Originally Posted by Sidewinder [+]
As a solution, rather than wiring from plate thru the body to outside why not simply drill a hole in the body for a nut n bolt, plus one in the plate and use a piece of wire or maybe thin copper or brass strip to properly connect plate to body?
I was also wondering about that approach ....

Offline Paul2bikes

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #116 on: 30 October, 2020, 12:02:51 PM »
Javaman is looking to identify the cause of the problem, not another bodge to get around it.
Also: '16 Tiger 800, '95 Yamaha Serow, '58 Ariel FH.

Online Sidewinder

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #117 on: 30 October, 2020, 12:13:04 PM »
If the problem is poor contact path between brush plate and motor body and the solution is to create a better one, i'd say that is a solution to the problem.  Done properly i'd hardly call it a 'bodge'.

Offline Javaman

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #118 on: 30 October, 2020, 02:02:06 PM »
Hey Sidewinder - interesting link.  Also, I had overlooked the eccentric nature of the brush pressure causing the plate to contact locally.
I am still playing with cleaning up contact areas to optimise performance before I repeat the hot tests and I will look carefully at this area of contact too and clean it accordingly - thank you.
Yeh - on the subject of bodges, I was hoping to identify a basic cause which could be easily remedied.
The bolt and cable approach is definitely a direct fix as opposed to a patch which is how I think of upgraded cables etc but if the latter work and they certainly appear to do so for most folks, then this would be an easier fix for most people.
Im convinced the fundamental issue is the poorer quality earth connection and I suspect this, in combination with the natural tendency for increased resistance with temperature, is the fundamental cause of the hot no crank.
Part of me thinks the bolt and cable approach shouldnt be necessary simply because so many bikes appear to function without issue . . . as did mine until now!!!
Anyway - just back from a ride out on the S3 - last of the year as they are SORNED now.
Will post again when I have anything useful to add - I guess Im going to have to look at the Tigga as well🙄

Offline Paul2bikes

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #119 on: 31 October, 2020, 08:59:46 AM »
Just reading similar probs on T800 forum, some on new'ish bikes. Reply 227 see link below, is interesting, where refurber suggests there is not enough copper in the windings. Now that sounds logical for a hot start issue, but Denso make a lot of starters, surely their designers should know better than odd job refurbers.

What you rec'n to the comments?

https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,11947.220.html
Also: '16 Tiger 800, '95 Yamaha Serow, '58 Ariel FH.