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Offline gosling 1

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #50 on: 25 September, 2020, 12:51:36 PM »
I assumed the compression readings, (not compression ratio), will be higher in a healthy engine when it is hot due to metal expansion and the rings sealing better. Is there a accurate way to measure the torque required to rotate the crank of a cold engine vs. hot? Hamlin did a compression/leakdown check on my 2008 Tiger a decade ago just before the warranty ran out. This was when the "cracked piston" issue was in full effect and just before Triumph issued the revised tunes to combat the issue. All three pistons gave readings of 230-250 PSI, (leakdown was less than 4% on all three). I commented that the compression values seemed unusually high and he tried to explain cam timing and overlap but I zoned out rather quickly  :087: :180:  Watched him do a compression test, (with the same tester), on a friends GSXR1000 and the values were all lower which I was told is normal for this motor even though it has a higher compression ratio than the 1050 motor. My non mechanic brain tells me that a motor that gives high compression readings will be harder for the starter motor to turn over.
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Offline Javaman

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #51 on: 25 September, 2020, 01:37:16 PM »
*Originally Posted by gosling 1 [+]
Is there a accurate way to measure the torque required to rotate the crank of a cold engine vs. hot?

Im sure there would be but well beyond my terms of reference  and most likely, not entirely necessary subject to what we find out from our investigations. Im going to put my neck on the chopping block by suggesting that I am going to find the starter motor itself will demonstrate reduced cranking torque both hot and cold or just when hot. If I can prove that, it will be a simple question to ask why??  Its the answer that eludes us for now!! 😬

Offline Sidewinder

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #52 on: 25 September, 2020, 04:19:44 PM »
Something else to consider, heat has a negative effect on permanent magnets.

"A magnet subjected to heat experiences a reduction in its magnetic field as the particles within the magnet are moving at an increasingly faster and more sporadic rate. Conversely, when the same magnet is exposed to low temperatures, its magnetic property is enhanced and the field strength increases."

80c is enough to cause a magnet to lose it's strength.

Offline Paul2bikes

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #53 on: 25 September, 2020, 06:10:18 PM »
By 'eckerslike, I hopes me starter aint getting up to 80c.
Also: '16 Tiger 800, '95 Yamaha Serow, '58 Ariel FH.

Offline Javaman

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #54 on: 25 September, 2020, 08:03:59 PM »
*Originally Posted by Paul2bikes [+]
By 'eckerslike, I hopes me starter aint getting up to 80c.

Mine reached 60C after 12 minutes at idle and 13C ambient.
Reduced cranking force of starters due to heat soak is well documented and is due to increased resistance in the armature windings and doubtless, maybe some loss in the field produced by the permanent magnets but the point to remember, design considerations like this are like giving Madame Curie a chemistry set for Christmas and then acting surprised when she knows what to do with it - the design engineers will have catered for all of this in the specification. It would be reasonable to expect a slightly reduced cranking speed when hot but no more than that. The random nature of this problem points to a common but not universal component or functional failure. Im really looking forward to getting the starter so that I can get started, even if the motor doesnt want to!!  :001:

Offline Paul2bikes

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #55 on: 25 September, 2020, 08:30:43 PM »
Just room for a meat & tattie pie in there.   :028:
Also: '16 Tiger 800, '95 Yamaha Serow, '58 Ariel FH.

Offline Javaman

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #56 on: 01 October, 2020, 05:06:07 PM »
Hi all . . . .

a big thumbs up and a massive thank you to Melchert who has posted his old starter motor for me to play with. He lives in the Netherlands and so although sent a couple of days ago, I haven't yet received it but expect it to arrive shortly and will pay postage as soon as my OnePay Fx Santander App decides to work!!
The starter comes off an early 1050 Tiger, I think it might even be a 2007 bike and was swapped out at around 60000Kms or 37500 miles. Melchert maintains it first started misbehaving around 2 years ago but gradually got worse to the point that it was failing to crank on virtually every occasion which called for a hot crank. Melchert tried an upgraded battery and thicker cables - whilst the upgraded battery helped initially, my understanding is the thicker cables made no improvement on his particular bike. From this point of view, the starter is an ideal testbed . . . .
Today, I conducted a little more information gathering on my own 2008 and measured the voltage drop across the OEM cables during a cold crank. My bike has 15000 dry summer miles and is always kept garaged and so corrosion isn't really an issue on it. I charged the battery fully and it was showing 13.1V immediately after removing the Accumate.
I removed the Fuel Pump relay to prevent the beast from firing and a friend cranked her over whilst I faffed with the Fluke meter. We achieved the following results . . . .

Voltage drop over the power cable from the positive battery terminal to the power feed terminal of the starter - voltage drop 0.35-0.6V
Voltage drop over the earth cable from the crankcase terminal to the negative terminal on the battery - 0.15-0.25V

The reason for the fluctuations will be due to variations in the motor speed and the resultant fluctuations in inductance etc etc and so it was never going to be a fixed reading. That said, a "safe" average would be to suggest a cold crank voltage drop of 0.7V over the OEM cables and starter solenoid. Whilst this does seem high, a little research would suggest this level of voltage drop is to be expected.

The OEM cables are not marked with their AWG rating but look to me to be AWG 6 which is generally recognised as being the smallest acceptable for starter cables. I have ordered AWG 4 for the testbed because I want to isolate my future test findings as far as possible to any possible inadequacies in the starter motor/motors and not the cables. Also, I plan to make the cables in the test bed to be an identical length to those on the bike so that I can measure the voltage drop and perhaps quantify how much help is afforded by using thicker cables as per the "Pudding cure". . . common sense suggests there is at least some. In order to make this test valid, I may well have to make up a separate set of testbed cables in AWG 6 to allow comparison.

I was initially puzzled why the voltage drop across the negative cable should be half that of the positive??  Well, I have yet to measure their exact lengths and so doubtless, this will be a factor but at least some of the difference must be due to the inclusion of the solenoid in the feed circuit and this presumably results in some loss of volts.

To put the above into perspective, it should be noted that the mere act of switching on the ignition, drops the battery from an open voltage of 13V to about 12.4 and this was purely due to powering up the ECU and fuel pump etc but excluding headlamp. (My xenons are on a 10-second relay and didn't come on at all as we managed to complete the entire test procedure within this time span.)

Unfortunately, my Tigga is sorned from today and so we weren't able to collect any data for a hot crank . . . that will have to wait but in any case, is secondary to the main investigation.

I have added one further planned test which I can also run, given I own a S3RS - this bike uses a YTZ14S battery which is 230CCA, as opposed to the 180 of the OEM battery. It will be interesting to see how much extra cranking force is produced by upgrading the battery. I suspect both battery and cable upgrades will yield demonstrable improvements in cranking force.

I will post next when I have the test bed made, the starter is here, rigged and ready to go. I expect this to be on Youtube and so I will post a link when we're good to go.
At the risk of repetition, as I might have posted this previously, the intention will be to measure the "stalled" or static torque produced by Melchert's motor, my Tigga motor and a brand new S1k motor.  All three will then be heated to 55Celcius and the same test repeated - let's just hope that one or all of these motors yield results which open doors for further investigation  . . . . . .
« Last Edit: 01 October, 2020, 05:14:11 PM by Javaman »

Offline Sidewinder

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #57 on: 01 October, 2020, 07:10:32 PM »
Look forward to the vids.

Offline Paullie

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #58 on: 01 October, 2020, 11:05:39 PM »
Fascinating stuff! I'm surprised by that voltage drop on the +ve cable. The joints on these cables are crimped only I believe, which could be relevant.

Be interesting to see what happens with the heavier gauge cable. Perhaps you're able to solder (or braze?) the connectors also, to get a really low-loss connection?

Look forward to seeing the results.

Offline JohnnyWheels

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Re: Hot Start Solution for Tiger 1050
« Reply #59 on: 01 October, 2020, 11:16:53 PM »
Here's an image of the Stoltec Moto starter cable kit. It will give you an idea of the different cable lengths. For reference the solid red cable is 6-7 inches long.

https://stoltecmoto.com/shop/triumph/tiger-1050/07-12-tiger-1050-starter-cable-kit/

By the way, the upgrade cables are 4 AWG.

« Last Edit: 01 October, 2020, 11:18:41 PM by JohnnyWheels »
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