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Offline seangee

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Re: Oil Pressure Sensor
« Reply #40 on: 15 December, 2019, 10:34:27 AM »
*Originally Posted by Paullie [+]
Sorry guys, I would do, but mine's all wrapped up and tucked away ready for the removal men.

Must admit, I'd expect the oil light to stay on until pressure gets up (i.e. engine running), otherwise what's the point of an oil pressure light?  :027:
When is the big move Paullie?
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Online Mike_B

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Re: Oil Pressure Sensor
« Reply #41 on: 15 December, 2019, 12:44:13 PM »
*Originally Posted by ZuluTiger [+]
Looking at the older 1050 and the Sport diagrams that I have, there is a common theme. The oil pressure switch indeed grounds the feed when not pressurized. BUT, the grounded point is fed to the instrument panel, not the ECM, in both cases. This means that in order for the instrument panel to light the oil pressure LED/light, the ECM must be controlling the positive feed that is supplied to the instrument panel. Furthermore, the ECM must also be able to provide an alternative ground for the oil pressure light in order to do the start-up test. Therefore the ECM is controlling both a (+) and a (-) associated with the test function of the instrument panel. This leaves a lot of room for a programming snafu or at least a conflict or firmware version issue in terms of the logic of the supplied (+) and (-). The tongue-tip test to prove whether the system is working would be the following IMHO:

Start the bike, allow it to go through the check sequence and settle down.
Access the oil pressure sensor and ground (with a good connection) the lead to the sensor to a genuine ground or a proven battery negative. This is tantamount to invoking a genuine low pressure scenario since it is a mechanical switch and you are simulating a direct failure signal.

If it lights, all good, and you can expect low pressure to be signaled in future.
If not, there is a logic string preventing the signal from reaching the ECM. Bad outcome no matter why since it indicates no low oil pressure sensing.

The problem can be in any part of the wiring or connectors between the instrument panel and ECM. Or, as stated, in a firmware glitch. IMHO.

Interesting.   I guess with the cable going to the instrument panel, it allows the instruments to display a warning only if there is an *unexpected* pressure reading from the sensor.   Engine off, no problem if there is low pressure.   Engine running but with the same pressure reading - big problem, light comes on.   We still know the light works, because it flicks on briefly during the self-test section when you turn the engine on.   Paul2Bikes and I have both experienced the system working properly; after an oil and filter change, we both independently noticed the light staying on a few seconds after firing the motor up.

Offline pudder

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Re: Oil Pressure Sensor
« Reply #42 on: 16 December, 2019, 10:32:25 AM »
*Originally Posted by ZuluTiger [+]
Looking at the older 1050 and the Sport diagrams that I have, there is a common theme. The oil pressure switch indeed grounds the feed when not pressurized. BUT, the grounded point is fed to the instrument panel, not the ECM, in both cases. This means that in order for the instrument panel to light the oil pressure LED/light, the ECM must be controlling the positive feed that is supplied to the instrument panel. Furthermore, the ECM must also be able to provide an alternative ground for the oil pressure light in order to do the start-up test. Therefore the ECM is controlling both a (+) and a (-) associated with the test function of the instrument panel. This leaves a lot of room for a programming snafu or at least a conflict or firmware version issue in terms of the logic of the supplied (+) and (-). The tongue-tip test to prove whether the system is working would be the following IMHO:

Start the bike, allow it to go through the check sequence and settle down.
Access the oil pressure sensor and ground (with a good connection) the lead to the sensor to a genuine ground or a proven battery negative. This is tantamount to invoking a genuine low pressure scenario since it is a mechanical switch and you are simulating a direct failure signal.

If it lights, all good, and you can expect low pressure to be signaled in future.
If not, there is a logic string preventing the signal from reaching the ECM. Bad outcome no matter why since it indicates no low oil pressure sensing.

The problem can be in any part of the wiring or connectors between the instrument panel and ECM. Or, as stated, in a firmware glitch. IMHO.
 

I my case at least, the exact test described gives two different results depending on whether the bike is running or not (ignition on).
When engine is running, grounding the wire causes the light to come on. (Which is what we would expect)
When engine is not running, but with ignition on and check sequence complete, grounding the wire does not cause the light to illuminate.

This is what confuses me, what is the difference between engine running and not running. Voltage?

As you say, there has to be a function within the ECM/Instrument cluster to provide a ground path for the self test. That bit works, as the light comes on briefly.
I presume there is then a relay or switch of some kind to change from 'self test mode', and you would assume this switches to 'live mode' (using the oil pressure switch).
But if it switches to live mode, and we've proved all of the following:
- grounding the switch wire causes the light to come on when running
- the switch body is well grounded
- the switch contacts are normally closed
- the switch contacts do not open until engine is started
Then why would the light not come on..

Online Mike_B

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Re: Oil Pressure Sensor
« Reply #43 on: 16 December, 2019, 11:44:50 AM »
Thing is, the instrument cluster is not a dumb collection of wires and gauges as in days of yore - it is essentially a small computer itself, linked to both the main ECU and the ABS controller.  The ECU certainly knows whether the motor is running, so presumably the cluster can display different things depending on that information.

Offline pudder

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Re: Oil Pressure Sensor
« Reply #44 on: 16 December, 2019, 11:50:24 AM »
*Originally Posted by Mike_B [+]
Thing is, the instrument cluster is not a dumb collection of wires and gauges as in days of yore - it is essentially a small computer itself, linked to both the main ECU and the ABS controller.  The ECU certainly knows whether the motor is running, so presumably the cluster can display different things depending on that information.

I suspect that unless we have some further insight into the specifics of what goes on within the instrument cluster, and potentially back to the ECU, then the most we can do is just guess at what may or may not be happening.

Offline Paul2bikes

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Re: Oil Pressure Sensor
« Reply #45 on: 16 December, 2019, 12:57:57 PM »
*Originally Posted by pudder [+]
I suspect that unless we have some further insight into the specifics of what goes on within the instrument cluster, and potentially back to the ECU, then the most we can do is just guess at what may or may not be happening.

The only way to prove the point is to fit a new oil switch & see how it behaves. Looks a bitch to get at with a spanner. Would it be necessary to fit it to test if it lights up the bulb with the ignition on but not started?
The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions.
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Online ZuluTiger

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Re: Oil Pressure Sensor
« Reply #46 on: 16 December, 2019, 03:31:25 PM »
I don't think its worth any more effort. I think Triumph have made it work this way on some bikes for whatever reason. It almost makes sense that they have 'enabled' a low pressure warning only for a running engine. It might be part of the firmware generated in certain locations. You've proved that it will work on a running engine if the pressure drops and the contact closes. I'd be moving on to a beer and some chips based on that :-)

Offline pudder

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Re: Oil Pressure Sensor
« Reply #47 on: 16 December, 2019, 03:47:11 PM »
*Originally Posted by ZuluTiger [+]
I don't think its worth any more effort. I think Triumph have made it work this way on some bikes for whatever reason. It almost makes sense that they have 'enabled' a low pressure warning only for a running engine. It might be part of the firmware generated in certain locations. You've proved that it will work on a running engine if the pressure drops and the contact closes. I'd be moving on to a beer and some chips based on that :-)

But we don't fully understand it yet  :008:
Life's too short and all that, but this kind of thing digs into my brain and I struggle to just let it go!

Online ZuluTiger

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Re: Oil Pressure Sensor
« Reply #48 on: 17 December, 2019, 05:07:07 AM »
I applaud your tenacity in running this down, Pudder. You probably need Triumph to comment now as there isn't really a fault in the switch, battery, etc. It all seems to be coming back to logic in the cluster or ECM. Good luck and keep us posted if you do nail it.